Welcome to another edition of Wrl Triangle and two. I'm Mark Be and he's Luis Fernandez and Lewis. I'm very excited for today's guest because it's a basketball player. I grew up watching, growing up in the Chicago suburbs. Now, you, you, you talked a lot about how excited you were to uh to talk with our, our guest today. Um So I'm, I'm pumped for you too. A lot of, a lot of uh AC C basketball history as well we're gonna be talking about. So it's gonna be great. Absolutely. And he's a Duke legend, former NBA point guard as well. Now, the head coach at Gaston Christian school in Gastonia, North Carolina. Welcome in Chris Duhon. Chris. Thank you for taking the time for us here this afternoon on Wrl Triangle two. It's good to see you. Uh Good to see you guys and thanks for having me, Lewis. Do you wanna, do you wanna jump right in or do you want me to get first crack at? Uh Sure, I, I can go ahead and get started. Um So, so Chris, um I wanna talk about the, the current first and then we can move on to the, the, you know, the Duke and the past and all that stuff. Um, but you're, you're high school basketball coach now, what, why, why is that, what's, what's that like, uh, having the opportunity to coach the next generation of, of, uh, you know, athletes coming up? Yeah. Uh, I mean, it's been fun. Um, you know, we, my wife and I, we just moved, uh, to the Charlotte area last year. Um, it was because she's a math professor. So she got a job at Davidson, uh Davidson College. Um, and we've always talked about making North Carolina home, you know, my mom lives here. So it was just kind of the last push we needed to be like, all right, let's just go ahead and do it. Um And then, you know, this opportunity came up, you know, I, my oldest son, I was gonna be a freshman this year and he was like, dad, I want you to coach me that, that'll be awesome and kind of like, all right, I gotta be, you know, careful what you wish for, you know, one of those type of things. And then, uh, but like I said, opportunity, uh, came about and, uh, just, you know, going there, uh, you know, interacting with the kids, uh, the, uh the school, everyone at the school, uh just felt, you know, seemed like a really, really good fit and, you know, I'm excited about it. How do you balance being dad versus being coach. I know you're gonna be really excited to coach your son who's an incoming freshman. But how do you balance those two roles? Yeah. You know, and I mean, it is, it's tough. Um, you know, and I'm still kind of, you know, you know, learning as I go with, uh, you know, you know, with that, uh, you know, I already told him, like, you know, you can't be calling me dad on the court, you know, that's gonna make everybody run. So, uh he's been, uh, you know, really consistent in not doing that as well. Um And, you know, and I also told him, you know, especially like, even before I took the job is that, um, you know, he, he's actually in the toughest position. Um, you know, just because of being the coach's son, he has to do everything, you know, extremely perfect or, well, not perfect, obviously, no one's perfect. But, uh, you know, he has to, you know, go above and beyond, you know, to kind of prove himself to give him an opportunity to, to play, you know, obviously with other parents and kids there, you know, there's the stigma that, oh, he's only playing because he's the coach's son. Uh, so we've had that conversation and that's something that, um, has been motivating him. Um, you know, so working on the dad coach thing is, uh, it's kind of been, it's been fun, but, uh, you know, it's, you know, and then having a wife that is obviously very protective of her son. So now I gotta deal with the dad coach and husband thing. So it's uh it's definitely a learning experience for me. Uh but uh I mean, I'm super excited about him. I'm super excited about it for him as well. Um And, you know, we will, we'll figure it out. It's, it's funny because, you know, there, there's this and obviously, you know, being a player, I don't know what your perspective on this is, but you know, when, as a fan of the game of basketball, it feels like we're in the middle of a changing generations where you're seeing a lot of the players who are coming up. It's like, oh, you know, oh that's so and so's son. Oh, that's so and so's, you know, nephew, what, whatever it might be. Um What, what's it like to you for you to see all these different uh that this next generation of, of basketball players start to come through and uh you know, try and leave their mark on the game. Yeah. No, it just keeps reminding me I'm getting old, you know, we feel like we're gonna be young forever. Uh But yeah, no, I mean, it's like amazing, like, especially the, you know, guys that are in the NBA now, you know, Kenyon Martin son. And then now you're watching lebron's kids, uh you know, make their mark and Carmelo Anthony, uh Boozer's kids who are, you know, still on the high school level who are, who are making the mark. So, uh you know, it is exciting, uh you know, you know, when you feel a sense of pride that you're able to, to play with or also compete against those guys and now see, you know, their kids move on and uh you know, just see the difference in the, in the style of games. Like they all kind of are putting their, uh, unique style, uh, to theirs. So where they're not complete mimicking, you know, their, their, their family or their father's games and things like that. So, um, you know, it's, it's very exciting, um, and, you know, it just grows to show you that, uh, everyone is very, really invested in their kids, uh, being able to, you know, have a chance to compete, you know, at the highest level and achieve their goals. And I'm looking forward to doing the same thing with my son, Chris. What's it like for you? Considering you've been a high level player? You've been a coach now at the college level. Now, going to the high school level soon, you'll be a parent of a player that, uh, other colleges are trying to recruit. At least that's the goal, everything. And you surrounded yourself with a lot of great coaches, a lot of great players. What is it that you're hoping, uh, to pass on to the next generation now in the role as a coach that you learned from great players and great coaches that they taught to you. Yeah. Uh, it's a great question. I mean, I think one of the main things is just that, uh, you know, to, you know, compete, dedicate yourself. Um, you know, if this is something that you wanna do and this is a goal of yours. Um, and then, you know, I tell this to my son all the time, like you have to, you have to want it, you have to want it more than I want it for you. Um You know, if it becomes, you know, to a point to where I am the one waking you up to go get extra shots or, you know, do what you need to do, then, you know, you're only gonna get so far. All right. So it has to be the opposite and uh you know, that's kind of what I tell the guys. I mean, in a way, uh you know, with this new generation, things are kind of given to them, you know, a lot easier. Uh Everybody wants things to happen right away. Uh You know, without going through the process and the learning curves and the ups and downs that uh are needed. And I think that helps, you know, helps mature you and grow you as a person and as a player, uh they want it instantly. So uh just telling them to be patient is a process. And then there's a price you have to play. You know, there's the sacrifices that you have to, to make in order to, you know, to get to those higher levels. So, you know, that's something that we talk about, you know, all the time and uh just kind of making sure that, uh you know, when things are not going your way, how to handle adversity, uh being able to have yourself prepared to be able to handle those moments. Um And, you know, that's kind of what I want to get to, you know, this kind of generation. All right. So, uh let's, let's go ahead and take a step back on the time machine now, uh go back to the early two thousands. Uh you know, when, when I was, when you go through and look at your resume, right? I feel like there's a lot of like, oh most number of X, you know, at the time of leaving Duke, most number of Y at the time of leaving Duke, like you, you left your mark man on, on AC C basketball, on Duke basketball. Um W what do you just, what, what comes to mind when you think of those days playing uh for the Blue Devils? Oh man, I mean, it was, you know, a fun time and I was around, you know, obviously great coaching staff, you know, the best that ever did it with coach K and, you know, at, you know, coach Collins, Chris Collins who's at Northwestern now and Johnny Dawkins, who's at UCF and, uh, you know, woo now is the head coach of the, the G league in, in, uh soul mate city. Uh, so just that, you know, having that staff and then obviously the players, I mean, you couldn't ask for a better group of guys, you know, I was very fortunate, um, you know, to, to play with Shane and Jay and Dunlevy and booze and, and, uh, and Dante and then the, the latter part of my career to play with, you know, guys like Daniel Luol Deng JJ Redick and, you know, Sheldon Williams and, you know, the list goes on and on and, um, you know, not only were they, you know, really, really great basketball players, but there are great people, people that I'm, you know, still friends with, uh, you know, today and stay in contact with today. Um You know, the thing that I, you know, I love the most about it was just uh the competition every day. I mean, you're going against the best of the best every day in practice and everyone's trying to prove themselves and, um, you know, you know, you know, put their stamp on the team and, you know, playing for playing time and, you know, everything wasn't safe. Uh So being able to, to have those moments every single day at practice, you know, a lot of people can't, you know, mimic that, you know, a lot of people can't mimic having those type of, um, you know, practices around great talent every single day. So, you know, those are the things I kind of miss the most is just, you know, the pick up games and, you know, even when we're in practice and we're doing situational basketball, um, you know, being able to, you know, compete with those guys and, you know, again guys were competitive. So, you know, everything for bragging rights counted and uh just grew us closer together as a team. What was your, if you, when you think back to it, what was your welcome to the AC C moment where you were like, oh man, ok, this is a different level of basketball that I'm used to. Um mhm. This moment, man, I mean, you know, my freshman year, I mean, the AC C was, was loaded I would think for me was, uh, you know, and I don't know, a lot of people, there was a guy Will Solomon played for Clemson. Um and I mean, he was just a straight bucket getter and uh you know, we played them and uh it was just like, ok, this, this guy is different, right? So, uh you know, he, that was on a more of a personal note. But then, I mean, you know, just the go that you're going through, I mean, you know, one day you're playing Maryland and the next day, you know, you're at Virginia where, you know, they were really, really good. Then you're playing Wake Fours with, you know, uh, you know, Chris Paul and those guys and then you're, you know, going in, you're playing UN C and then it was just, uh, you know, nonstop competition throughout the league. Um, and it was just kind of like, you know, not all in this league is different, you know, because there's really no cupcakes, you know, in, you know, in your conference at all and every single game matters because that's just how talented everybody was. So, Chris, you mentioned the, obviously having a great coaching staff that surrounded you. Uh What, what was it like being coached by? Coach K? Like I, I feel like every Duke player is gonna get this at some point in time, it just, it feels so obvious, but what, what, what, what was your relationship like with him and, and what's it like to reflect on having those years with him? Yeah, I mean, our, our relationship is great. Um I mean, one of the, the great things that coach Kate does, which makes him, uh you know, the best coach is that he, you know, develops a real relationships. He's real important on developing relationships uh with every individual that's there, you know, not, not only collectively but individually. Um and, you know, he, you know, you know, makes us earn it, you know, he doesn't give us anything. And, uh, he was tough, you know, there was a standard that, you know, we had as a, as a program and then, you know, obviously there's a standard that he has for you individually and, you know, anything short of that, he was gonna let you know and knowing that you could push yourself to be better and that you can get better. And, uh, you know, that was something that, uh, it was very, very, you know, important for all of us because he just taught us, you know, kind of how life is, like, you're not gonna be given anything, you know, you're gonna have to put in the work, put in the time, put in the dedication and, you know, hence that, you know, every year there's gonna be a new crop of mcdonald's all Americans coming in. So, like, you know, no matter what you did the season before that has nothing to do, it was a whole completely new year. He coached every, every one of my teams completely different. Um, and so just to be able to see him adjust, uh, day in and day out and hold everyone accountable. Um, you know, it was just something that, you know, we can take from not only just playing with him, but, you know, things that we could take for the rest of our lives. So let's go back really quickly then, uh, 2004 This is Roy Williams first season and Roy Williams, coach K two legendary coaches, you hit the game winning reverse lay up 6.5 seconds left. What's it like to hit a game winning shot against a bitter rival? Everyone knows Duke North Carolina. What's that feeling like as a player? Oh, I mean, I mean, I was, you know, but you can't ask for anything more, right? And then, you know, especially being a senior, my last time being in that arena, uh, to, to leave them with, uh, you know, me hitting a lay up as the last memory that, you know, they're gonna have, uh, you know, it, it just, it just meant a lot and, uh, you know, they were obviously really, really good that year. Uh, you know, we were really, really good that year and I mean, the game was incredible, you know, overtime game but, you know, big shots after big shots and, um, you know, just, you know, being in that atmosphere and being in that moment and just be able to, you know, achieve that with something very special that I get to talk about all the time. And, um, you know, we, even though we're rivals, like, you know, a lot of us, uh, you know, are good friends with each other, like, and I are really good friends. So it's always something I can hang over his head, you know, for many times. It's kind of my ace of spade that I can always pull out and, and say, hey, you remember that reverse layer that, uh, you know, I put on you to, you know, to win the game. So, uh, but it was just a great time, a great, great win for us. Uh, but it was great to be a part of that game and a part of that rivalry. That's, uh, that's fair. I, I Chris, what you don't know is Lewis is a UN C alums. So I know I sensed it with the color shirt with the color. Like, listen, this is, this is a, this is Wro Polo. OK. It's professional polo. You have a, you have a white one, you have a black one but you chose to come with the light blue. I, I, I'm used to it. I plead, I plead the fifth. Um I, I plead the fifth on that one. Let's, let's go back to Duke, let's go back to Duke. Uh iii I guess you can kind of answer this in two parts, right? Uh Who, who is your, the, the best teammate and interpret best? However, you'd like uh best teammate you played with at Duke and then professionally? Oh man, that's tough. Like I said, I was around a lot of great guys and I'm actually fortunate, you know, even in my professional career as well. Um You know, college, uh man, that's tough. We're gonna make sure everyone else hears Yeah. Yeah, I know, um, best teammate, I mean, I would, I would say as far as best team in, as far as, you know, what the, what it looks like to be in college, a college athlete be play at the highest level, great leadership, great person overall. You, I mean, you would have to go with Shane, you know, Shane, be as far as overall how you, how, how it's supposed to look for, you know, a college, a athlete, you know, their time, you know, during college or, you know, where he started as a freshman and continued to grow, grow, grow and, you know, become the player that he became as a senior. Um and then how he was off the court as well, like, I mean, perfect leader guy that you could rely on, you can always depend on, uh you know, have your back. Uh So I would go in that aspect I would go with, with Shane. Um NBA man, again, I was, I was a lot around a lot of great people. Um probably the couple that stand out to me the most were uh Kirk Hinrich. Uh you know, he and Ir Tom and in Chicago. Um and you know, Jamir Nelson, um and Quentin Richardson, Quentin, you know, with, we were in New York and then we're also in Orlando and then Jamir and I, uh you know, being together in Orlando. Um you know, probably those are the, you know, the, the, the top two, top three guys, you know, NBA wise, but that interesting, I mean, I, I kind of imagine the, the, the, the shame the Shane Battier answer. Like I, I kind of expected that, you know what I mean? Just because, I mean, the dude, I mean, I, I think he still holds the, he, he, one of, one of the winningest, you know, ac C basketball players of all time. Um, Kirk Hinrich though. All right. Um, you know, you, I mean, you, you played with a lot of different people too, I guess that's, that's one of the cool things right about just professional basketball careers is you have the opportunity to overlap with so many, so many different players. Uh, and that's, I know that's, that's, that's really cool from a, a basketball, you know, someone who just enjoys the game's perspective. Hinrich's rookie year in 2003. Famous draft class, lebron James Dwyane, Wade, Chris Bosh and everything. Hinrich was the first player in that draft to get a triple double in the game and the headline in the Tribune at the time. Chris, I believe Casey Johnson was the beat reporter back then. Was Heinrich Maneuver was the headline, uh, back in 03. And now that it was a little bit before your time in the league, but, um, you say all these names, it brings back a lot of great memories. Uh what I wanted to ask you was going from coach K to Scott Skiles in the NBA? Was that an easier transition? Because I know Skis was a no nonsense coach? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it, you know, that, I mean, because, I mean, Scott was, uh, a tough coach. I mean, he loved Scott S, um, I mean, I think he would have been like an amazing college coach just because of the style that he did. And I mean, if you kind of think about it, that, that team that we were, you know, the Baby Bulls quote unquote, uh we were basically a college team. I mean, you had myself and the wall from Duke, uh Kirk from Kansas who's co under Roy Williams, uh Ben Gordon from coach Calhoun and uconn, you know, Andres Nocioni from Argentina. And, you know, so we, all of us were really, really young, you know, we're just trying to make our marks in the league and, you know, didn't know kind of how the NBA worked quote unquote. Um So he, you know, he was able to, to coach us hard and we didn't know any better. We just, whatever you say, coach, you need us to run through this wall, we're gonna run through this wall, right? And, and then, you know, obviously surrounded us with like Tyson Chandler and Andy Curry who had more quote unquote NBA experience. But, you know, we were all older than them because they came straight out of high school. So, uh, you know, it was, uh, it was fun time but, uh, you know, coach, I mean, I very, I mean, I appreciate very appreciative of him. Uh, obviously being a guard, being a guy that had to grind his way, you know, in the NBA with his career, uh, you know, he gave, you know, obviously his guards a lot of, you know, freedom to, you know, kind of run the team and, you know, be who we are. And I mean, and, and he held us accountable and I think that's one of the things that, you know, obviously learning that from coach K that he kind of kind of mimicked to where, you know, he, we, we wanted to be the best defensive team out there and that was, you know, one of our goals and that was his goal and, you know, I, you know, I tell this story all the time. It's like, you know, those 1st 20 games, uh, you know, my rookie year, you know, we played a certain coverage on the side, you know, which we called it, you know, icing or blue to where you keep the ball on the sideline. You don't let the guy go over the top on the pick and roll. And, uh, you know, if that happened, if, you know, the guy, the guard was able to get over the top, I mean, he was, he was sub right out and then, you know, if the next person did it, you know, he'll put you right back in. So, I mean, it got to a point to where, you know, you're sitting on the bench and you're watching, like, he didn't even have to call you, you just start walking to the scores table, the person who, you know, didn't do it the right way. They started, they already knew who the sub was coming for. And then, you know, once we developed it, I mean, it was, you know, genius in a way because now it was, it was in our heads. So we're like, man, I don't care what happened, there's no way you're getting over the screen and then it just kind of developed that mindset, that mindset and mentality for us to where, you know, then obviously after that, um you know, he gave us a little bit more leeway because, you know, again, you're still going against the best guards, you know, in the world. So they're gonna find ways to, you know, maneuver and get, you know, get their ways over screens. But, you know, just the accountability and, you know, you know, holding us to a standard part. I mean, he did a, he did an amazing job with them, you know, Chris, I think, um, you, you're in a really unique position, I feel like just in terms of basketball because of you, you're, you're a high school coach because you've had this college experience, you've had this professional experience and basketball has changed so much is continuing to change so much both from like a game perspective, but also just from a, an industry perspective, if you will. So if, if I don't want, want you put on your coaching hat, um, you know, your, your dad hat, really, if you could offer any piece of advice to someone who is trying to make a transition from high school to college basketball, someone who's about to take that next step. What's, what advice would you give them? What advice would you tell them? Don't listen to that? Focus on this. I mean, I would tell them, uh, you know, you know, my, you know, main advice is, you know, wherever you're deciding to go, you know, make sure it's, it's a fit for you, you know, style of play for your relationship with the coach, assistant coaches, you know, get on campus, be around the players a little bit, you know, kind of get a feel for, you know, how the culture is, uh, that type of thing, uh, to where you're making the best decision for you and not what the university is can offer you basically because, you know, every university, you know, they're car salesman, they're gonna tell you there's everything's perfect, nothing's wrong here, you know, those type of things and then, you know, maybe making you promises and then you get on campus, you know, once you sign that letter, there's not much you could do, right? So once you get on campus, they could do kind of wherever you want. That's why I feel you see a lot of people transfer and, and things like that. Um But then I will also just say that nothing's again, kind of to my point earlier. Uh you know, you don't want anything handed to you. You know, it feels better when you felt have to earn and grind to get to achieve the things that you wanna achieve. So, you know, whenever you do make that transition to the next level and early on things don't go well for you, that's not a time to start pointing fingers or, or, you know, saying, oh I'm gonna go somewhere else because it's gonna be an easier path, you know, here and there. Um I think that's the time where you find out more about who you are as a person. Um And understand that, you know, you know, this is not easy, easy, like you're gonna have to grind, you're gonna have some setbacks, but those setbacks are gonna help you be a better person, but also a better player down the road. And if you're able to overcome that, you'll just either, um you know, like you won you or appreciate it a lot more because you knew you had to fight and grind for it. And then, and you know, it would just make you a better player and person down the road as well along those same lines, Chris, have you had a failure or an apparent failure that set you up later for success during your playing career? I guess what I'm trying to ask you is, is, do you have a favorite failure of yours? Uh Favorite failure? Uh I mean, I, I think, you know, my favorite failure probably would be by the end of my, uh my stint in Chicago. Um, you know, things kind of got changed a little bit, the culture changed a little bit. There's coaching changes. Um, you know, you know, I wasn't happy with playing time and, you know, during those moments, uh, you know, I became like really selfish, you know, like, you know, my energy level, it was kind of a like not care attitude, uh to where, you know, I wasn't preparing as hard as I could have prepared. I wasn't putting in the extra work that I, you know, should have been putting and then probably about 20 games, you know, left in the season. It was kind of like that, you know, I, I had a conversation with actually Adrian Griffin. Uh he wasn't even on the team now but Adrian, um at that time, uh, but he was just like, hey, man, you're being evaluated every single day, you know, not only by your team, your coaches staff but every arena there's G MS, there's scouts, there's someone out there that, you know, if the Bulls are not the right fit for you, you know, they may wanna bring you, you know, to their locker room. Um, and you know, if you're going out there with this nonchalant attitude and you're not putting in the work, you know, why would they trust in bringing you, you know, to their organization, you know, as well, because, you know, as we all know, you know, players, we talk, we have our own fraternity. So do coaches, they have their talk, they have their fraternity, so do G MS and so on and so on. Uh, so he was like, you always want to put the right foot forward. So I think that was kind of a, a time to where it was like, I had to make that adjustment and, you know, change my mindset until as far as understanding it's a business and, you know, really focus on trying to get better and was able to play well those last 20 games when, you know, I did get the opportunity, which, you know, gave me the opportunity to go to New York and, you know, become the starting point guard, you know, with the Knicks. So, uh, those, that was one of the failure that I had that, you know, I was really, uh, and that's something that II I use all the time to make sure that players know that, you know, you're always being evaluated, you're always being watched. You know, so not, you know, when you think no one is watching you, that could be the most important time where somebody is really actually watching you. So you always wanna continue to grow, continue to get better, continue to have a great attitude, control what you can control. You know, you could control your attitude, you could control your effort, you could control your work at it. And then, you know, even if it doesn't fit for this team or if it fits in this current situation, that consistency somewhere down the low down the road, you will see it all come to fruition. So I, I'm not, I'm not gonna call you an old head because that would mean that, that mark and I are also around that old head territory as well. Um And so I, I would not, I would not like that. We, we'll, we'll reference you as an older head. Um But I, I feel like, you know, there, there's this separation of it in terms of how people view the current state of college basketball, right? Um And, and sometimes I feel like it's generational, sometimes it's um just about like different perspectives, but when you view what college basketball currently is and that, you know, obviously that includes nil includes transport portals, all that kind of stuff. What, what are your thoughts on, on the current state of things? Um Are you, you know, are you happy with the, the fact that players have so much more freedom and the ability to kind of choose their own path, choose their own destiny. Are there frustrations? What, what, what, what vibe do you get from the current state of things? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, it's a little bit of everything. I mean, it's kind of like, you don't know where to, uh, because everything is kind of happening so fast and then there's like no rules to anything. So it's like, kind of like, uh, you know, kind of hard to get a grasp of everything. Um And then it's also, like you said, it's kind of a different generation, like we were, you know, taught a different way or we grew up a different way, we didn't have access to everything that uh these current players have access to. Um So, you know, it's kind of different mindsets and things like that. Um I think is, uh tough on a game of college basketball because it's, you know, that's kind of where, you know, you like you like to follow and have like a story with certain players. Like that's kind of where you meet your favorite player. And then you want to see how they do at the next level and then you get to see them play for three years that, you know, and what's your favorite school and things like that? And they do well, and then you follow their career and then now it's like, oh I thought he was, you know, with Michigan but now he's at, you know, Arizona, like, kind of like what's going on and then, you know, for me just come, that's when it comes down to which, uh, you know, I try not to judge and everyone's situation is completely different, but it's kind of one of those, ok, that something happened or where somebody else got better and he didn't like the situation and he ran off to the easier path. Uh you know, that type of deal, I think with the, you know, nil, you know, it's just, you know, it's, it's become a business, you know, you know, and you got also understand people's situation as well. A lot of these kids don't come for money and you start throwing out figures like that to where they can help their families and things like that. You know, it makes sense that you see these guys make the jump from here to here uh to be able to, you know, to, you know, to help their family. So there's a lot of mixed emotion because I, you know, I miss, you know, having building those rivalries like, you know, Ray Raymond Felton and myself did or Steve Blake and myself did and Juan Dixon and that, you know, you know, each year coming in, it's like, you know, here they go again, like round three, round four, round five. And, but now it's tough to, to see those things and see those type of matchups anymore. Um, you know, I, you know, I agree that, you know, players obviously should, uh, you know, be getting paid for, obviously a lot of the money that they bring to the university. Uh, but I, I don't also believe that it should be, you know, a free for all. I don't think that it should be like, I think there needs to be some rules, uh, in place with that. I don't have the answer. I'm not smart enough that's above my pay grade. Uh, but I think to help college basketball, um, you know, because like at the end of the day, who's it really hurting? It's, it's hurting a lot of these high school kids, right? Because, you know, with the, the freedom to continue to transfer as much as you want whenever you want to go, you know, as a college coach, you know, why would you want to put the, uh, now you're making it more NBA G league type on the college level because you, you rather a junior who's played in the college level, you know, for two years to come and, and integrate them into your system, then, you know, of a 17, 18 year old freshman who has no college experience and going through those type of growing pains. So, on a coaching general manager of mine said it makes sense that you see these, you know, colleges wanting to get grad transfers and wanting to get transfers from other places are older, bringing older, to stay older, having to go to the growing pains of younger kids that, you know, have to, you know, to get, learn how to play on the college level or understand the speed, understand everything like that. So, I think, I think that the end of the day, that's where, who's getting hurt the most is, uh, you know, these, uh, the high school seniors that are, you know, obviously not your top 50. Uh, but the ones beyond that, the ones that you're, uh, guys that are, are gonna have to grind and kind of get better is hurting them because, you know, they now have to make decisions quick. You know, they don't have the, the luxury of, uh, really filling out a college and getting to know them because, you know, if you don't sign in that early period, you know, they're not looking at you beyond that. You know, they're as soon as if you don't sign early with them right then and there, once the season is over, they're seeing who's transferring and who else they can bring in that's already has experience and they're getting kind of left, you know, left behind in that aspect. So I think there's a lot of things you got to do to kind of fix it. Um, but, you know, I, you know, I just kind of missed the rivalry as far as guys kind of, you know, growing up together competing on that college level with, you know, with the same team and, you know, those developing those type of rivalries. Let me ask you this, Chris, do you think you ever see a day where obviously a player could go professional, they could go to the G league. Do you think we'll ever see the return of a high school player going directly to the NBA? Because right now you have to be 19 years old. Um, I mean, I think so just because of, you know how, you know, a lot of these kids in high school are reclassified, right? So it just, you know, you reclassify two years, you know, you're a 19 year old senior in high school or 18, but you're gonna turn 19, you know, whenever and then you can, you know, be eligible for the draft. Uh, I mean, I don't think they will change the rule. I think, you know, as far as, you know, Adam wants actually is warning and encouraging guys to stay more than just one year, um, you know, on the college level and then, you know, hopefully, like I said, with, you know, N I, with the nil and you're able to pay players, I thought that it would help the game of college basketball to be able to, to keep, you know, these kids playing more than one or two. I mean, more than just one year just on the fact that, you know, you're getting paid. Right. You're, you're still getting paid, you have money in your pocket and things like that. Um, it was just amazing to me that you see so many people leave and, you know, they're not getting drafted or they're getting drafted late in the second round. And again, I just, I guess it goes with the generation to where, you know, in my generation, you know, you weren't leaving unless you were kind of guaranteed lottery pick. Right. And if you weren't a guaranteed lottery pick, you're staying, you're coming in for your next year to where that mindset has changed to where guys are just trying to leave and go and chase the money and, you know, now you're seeing all these players that could have, you know, spent another year in college and build their brand and that type of thing, you know, half the time, I don't even know, you know, where they're playing at anymore. It's just, you know, what G league are you on G league team that you're on now? Are you even in the league anymore? That type of thing? So, um, yeah, I mean, I just, I just, I just think that, uh, he won't change the, uh, the age grade. I think it will always still be 19. And, um, you know, he just kind of hope I'm hoping that, you know, these kids that especially now they getting paid, have more, better guidance to, hey, let's really develop yourself as a player as a person, you know, that type of thing to where when you do go, you're really ready to go and play right away instead of, you know, kind of bouncing around from G league team to G league team. And, you know, you can always get lost in the shuffle and that, I, I do really appreciate your perspective on all that though because I mean, it is, it's not, it's not one size fits all right. You know, every, every individual player, every individual program, every individual coach is gonna have something going on. Um, and so it's, it, it, it's, it's interesting to hear, you know, you speak on it can, can you, can you imagine a world where you were, uh, a rising freshman in, in college, uh, around this time in, in this state of college or basketball? How, how do you think you would handle, uh, being like, you know, class of 2027 2028 whatever, whatever class we've got going on right now. Oh, man, I have no idea. I mean, how I, how immature I was back then. Um, man, it was, it would be and, you know, and that's what you gotta understand. Like we, we, especially when you start giving money and things like that. You know, we forget that, you know, these are 17 year old kids that are still 18 year old kids that are still learning and finding themselves and, you know, under about to start paying their own bills for the first time and things like that and we're, you know, making them, make, you know, grown men decisions. Um, I know, I, you know, with the social media aspect and things like that. Uh, man, I, I can't, I, I can't imagine, uh, what I would be doing at this time. So, uh, you know, my older so would be like, yeah, I could, I'd have been able to handle it. Uh, but if I really think back of, uh, yeah, I would have, it have been, been some issues for me as well. Chris, one of the things I want to ask you too, outside of basketball, you're looking to get a, you know, for your hobbies. What is it like you like to do outside of the game of basketball when you're not coaching when you're not playing? Uh, you know, for me just, you know, I have five kids so, you know, being a dad, being a husband is fun, um, golf, I've really got into golf. So, uh, you know, been, you know, playing a lot of golf, you know, things like that. So, uh, you know, but again with five kids, you know, my day never stops. So it's, you know, basketball, his dance, his cheerleading, it's soccer, it's, you know, someone has something going on every single day. So being, uh, you know, I guess an a au sports that, uh, you know, has been kind of my hobby of, of, of, of late, all that traveling, man. I can't, I can't even imagine like, what it must be like. Is there anything else you want to get to? This has been awesome. Oh, just, yeah, just traveling. What, what, what has that been like for you to, I mean, is, is the, the upcoming freshman, is that your oldest? He's my oldest. So I, so basketball dance, like all these different things. How, how much are you, are you all traveling to different things as like a family type? Yeah, I mean, the, the, the worst part is that, you know, we can't do it as a family all the time is divide soccer. So it's like, you know, she has to go with my daughter to soccer and then I have to go with Jeremy here and then we switch and we flip it up because they always, you know, everything now is like year round. It used to be, you know, a AU is from, you know, June to August and then that was it. But now, you know, a AU is like year round. So, uh, you know, just kind of trying to figure out the schedules and things like that. But, you know, it's also a fun time just to see, give them, give them the experience of playing people in different States and, uh, you know, things like that and you know, them being able to, uh, you know, already get that kind of team camaraderie with staying with their friends at hotels and things like that. So, um, you know, it's been, been fun, you know, I guess traveling but it's, you know, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of, you know, prescheduled knowing who, making sure that we have all five kids because it's easy to leave one or two every now and then Chris, I notice a little bit of in your eye knowing that the school year is about to start and with five kiddos, I can only imagine. Yeah. I mean, it's funny that you used to dread the first couple of days of school to now you're like circulating on the calendar. Like you can't wait. It's like some extra sleep. Just get out the house. I need some, I need some peace and quiet.